News conference: State auditor looks at ways agency can improve customer experience
Um In total we had about 20 auditors and specialists
working on this DMV audit and this is our first
step at the DMV and our first stab
We've got more to do but we analyzed everything including
the full DMV budget which can be found at appendix
uh in the appendix of the 435 page audit at
page 257
As many of you know uh in my previous service
I served as chair of the board of UNC Chapel
Hill and we're at the university level we always talked
and often talked about uh the ability to leverage our
public institutions of higher learning here in North Carolina to
help improve the quality of life of all of our
citizens
So consistent with that notion as part of this audit
uh we asked and the team asked and they agreed
Uh and we were able to engage the Institute for
Transportation Research and Education
Doctor Daniel Finley who's also present here today uh from
NC State University uh the Bryan School of Business and
Economics at UNC Greensboro Doctor Joey Badori is present here
today and we also engaged the UNC School of Government
I wanna thank Dean Amy Wall for her assistance that
um let me also say
That Governor Stein and I have had a lot of
conversations about the DMV
He has been incredibly helpful
Uh I will say even more helpful has been new
uh and and and should be because it's his job
uh DMV commissioner Pauline he's been fantastic to work with
I think he's a really good choice to lead the
DMV
It's got a lot of uh a lot of energy
and Secretary of Transportation Joy Hopkins has been instrumental in
helping our team
I wanna also thank uh Senate President Pro Tem Phil
Berger
Senator Dan Blue minority Leader Sydney Batch Senators Vicky Sawyer
Michael Lazara Bill Rabin and Todd Johnson and on the
House side Speaker Dustin Hall House Majority Leader Brendan Jones
minority Leader Robert Reeves Representatives uh Jay Adams Frank Eyler
Jeff McNeely Phil Shepherd and Steve Tyson along with Representative
Alen Branson who I know have worked really hard on
DMV issues
Uh but by far however the most thanks goes to
the men and women
Who worked every day at DMVs across our state
As part of the audit our team fanned out across
the state of North Carolina and engaged those individuals in
one on one conversations in driver's license offices across the
state of North Carolina and guess what They had some
great ideas They really know what they're doing at the
ground level and they have some fantastic ideas that we
believe can help every single North Carolinian and make DMV
more efficient
It's no secret I campaigned on the idea of auditing
the DMV
But this effort with respect to the state auditor's office
will not be isolated to just the DMV
This is an effort to make the state auditor's office
relevant to everyday North Carolina North Carolinians
We want to perform audits that matter
This is however uh clearly our first stab at a
comprehensive type audit that seeks to inject relevance into the
office of the state auditor
The DMV is the most customer facing government agency in
the state and if this audit and our efforts do
nothing else
Folks if if this audit does nothing and falls flat
I will say this in a proud way that this
office has led the effort in shining a light and
putting an emphasis on the fact that our DMV needs
reform and that action needs to be taken
DMV affects the economy of North Carolina and the reputation
of our state
You know I woke up this morning early probably 5:30
about normal for me and uh where's WRAL Are you
here Laura Levine was on the on TV this morning
and in the background was a line of people at
event Ferry who had camped out or gotten there at
4 in the morning to try to get into the
DMV to get help
You know I was also watching TV and turning the
channels last night
I see that CBS is doing a uh a comedy
show on the DMV
Well folks we've got to do better than that
Our DMV serves 8.6 million North Carolinians and we have
about 350 people that move here each and every day
to our state
Uh the DMV is an issue that at all levels
of government we have agreement and that we owe the
people of North Carolina a fix to the DMV
We're releasing today what is officially a two part audit
There will be additional audits of the DMV as we
move forward looking at things for example like license plate
agencies but these first two which are really 3 in
total uh are an audit of information systems a performance
audit of the licensing and issuing function of DMV
And we have a full detail of the budget and
spending of the DMV that is included in the appendix
We put it in the appendix because by its very
nature the data is is about a year in date
uh but the budget analysis is instructive to the overall
DMV story and we wanted to make sure that that
data was included
Our audit tells a story we show how customer experience
is deteriorating worse than we had even known and how
DMV employees are grappling with a growing workload
And how staffing issues are hurting the DMV and customers
This audit highlights how DMV management has struggled to improve
its IT infrastructure and ultimately we show a systematic breakdown
and historically fractured relationship between the DMV and the Department
of Transportation where the DMV is housed
Now let me stop and say this right here this
is not a personality-based issue
I have found Commissioner Pauline and Secretary Joe Hopkins to
work really well together
They've also worked with our team exceptionally well and I
do think that they are committed to doing what's right
on behalf of the people of North Carolina
But in making recommendations from the state auditor's office we
can't isolate our recommendations to particular personalities
It has to be recommendations that are based on ultimate
long term uh structure
The DMV particularly has gotten notably worse over the last
5 years
Uh we had a constituent uh contact our office for
example
Her name is Leticia and she had tried to get
her driver's license renew renewed from November to May
So think about that time period
During one visit she actually saw more than 100 people
turned away
So she took it upon herself to call
She actually got the phone number of a particular DMV
employee and called every single day for 2 to 3
weeks until she finally was able to slip in and
get her driver's license
We have here today Erin Van Horn
Erin come on up and when I ask her to
share her experience with the Department of Motor Vehicles
Thank you
I have a 16 year old son at the time
and he was trying to get his driver's license
Um didn't think it was gonna be that big of
an ordeal
Our first visit we had an appointment 2.5 hours away
because that was the only available time we could get
He was ready
We had everything to go
Perfect timing for us
Um we got there no worker was there available to
perform the test the road test
So they said you're gonna have to go back to
the system
So that's 1 day out of school and 1 day
out of work for me
Our second visit was 3 hours away towards the mountains
because that was the only appointment I could get
When we got there their system was down
So they couldn't take us in
So that's 2 days out of school 2 days out
of work for me
The 3rd visit we are informed to go to Lillington
because they have a no appointment required
We got there early at 6:30 in the morning
There were dozens of people camped out like you said
people one man had spent the night there sleeping bags
It's crazy
And 7:45 they come up with a sign that says
no workers
Oh it was awful
And then our 4th visit I was able to get
an appointment in Mount Airy and I live in Holly
Springs so this is all a lot of traveling
We got the appointment
Waited over 2.5 hours with an appointment and was able
to finally get his license
But since then they have restrictions on licenses where you
can't drive after 9 for a certain amount of time
We have attempted 3 times to go to the DMV
to get that released and We we just can't get
in
And my son has missed a total of 4 days
of school and 4 days of work
Without even getting his license out of provisional he's going
to be 18 this year so we're just honestly winging
it um but it's just been a very big ordeal
for us and we cannot seem to get an appointment
anywhere for any more appointments for his renewal that's coming
up in 2 years so
That's been the biggest problem for us is just availability
and the uh from what we were told lack of
workers
Thank you Aaron
It's E R I N V A N H O
R E N is how she spells her name uh
and she is a North Carolinian
Uh and that goes to the point of why I
decided when I ran for office that we would focus
on the DMV
Our subject matter experts analyze data to determine how long
customers typically remain at each driver's license location
If you look through the audit there's a detailed map
illustrating those issues
I'm not gonna go through all the facts because we'll
be here all day and Mac talked about this stuff
all day
I really could uh because uh again I never thought
I'd want to be the state auditor or really get
jazzed about doing this stuff but to me this stuff
is fascinating and it's important
Uh one thing to note as an overall issue that
our audit found and that is a lack of detailed
and measurably relevant metrics at the DMV
That really should be a headline across the state of
North Carolina as we've been I've been in office now
7 months
We started this audit 6 months ago so this is
a 6 month work product
We started the 1st of February with this
um we're seeing a lack of metrics and measurabilities across
the state of North Carolina
You know we need measurable data uh so that managers
can know what they're doing right and what they're doing
wrong and so they they can look at it and
see exactly what needs to be done to move uh
to use a sports analogy the ball down the field
And uh you know private business uses metrics in a
day of in this day of data analytics and the
use of high-speed computers the state of North Carolina's got
to get on board with data analytics and metrics across
the across the state
So but we are we're able to glean some informative
issues
We found that statewide average customer service visits actually exceeded
uh 11 hour and 15 minutes which is up 15.4%
from 2019
Now I wanna note here that this is DMV data
based on when individuals actually check in the license office
right This doesn't include how long you have to wait
outside if you're there for a show up
We also found that 13.8% of customer visits exceeded 2.5
hours in the year 2025 which is a 79% increase
statewide
We found that 47.5% of driver's license office transactions in
fiscal year 2025 were customers not visiting their closest office
and that 14% of rural customers traveled outside of their
service area for more than an hour
Over the past 5 years customer experience has been measurably
declining a trend closely linked to both increased population population
and persistent structural and governance challenges
The employee experience has uh diminished as well
Employees uh in our talk with them cited low salary
burnout security concerns lack of support and inadequate training
If you look at salaries
The average salary remains below $50,000 for examiners in both
rural and urban areas
You can see the appendix at page 300 for a
detailed chart of the DMV pay
I have that chart with me here
If you go to the appendix at page 300 it
shows a detailed analysis of that pay
Uh quite frankly the state should evaluate market-based salaries and
an approach to paying these positions because frankly many positions
across the state are in different metropolitan and local areas
I mean let's be let's be just honest about it
It costs more to live in Charlotte than it does
in rural eastern North Carolina and we need to look
at it from a pay standpoint of what we pay
folks to get the job done
Examiners have also described customers lunging at them and in
one instance a uh a customer actually kicked a glass
pane in and then another instant a customer followed a
license examiner out behind the uh DMV license office
These folks these hardworking men and women who are serving
the people of North Carolina are facing increasingly stressful and
occasionally hostile work environments
And It really really really needs to get better and
so uh we will and and I know let me
just say this I know Governor Stein Commissioner uhy and
Secretary Hopkins are fully on board with this and they
understand that
But DMV is operating on an unsustainable staffing model
Current DMV workforce levels are insufficient to meet the needs
needs of North Carolinians
There are several issues at play clearly and it's been
reported some some news outlets here have have gotten it
right that over the past 20 years our population has
increased by 2.5 million people
However during that same period licensed examiner positions have only
increased by 52 positions
That's only half the problem right now
There are approximately 160 total vacant examiner positions
Those are empty slots
The DMV has to have more employees in its office
and those vacant positions need to be filled
You know one of the things we did in the
state auditor's office we hired a uh we redesigned an
administrative position to be a full-time recruiter and I think
that's a great idea for DMV as well
Uh we want to make sure we have the best
and brightest working in the state auditor's office and we
want somebody full time recruiting uh folks to come work
for the state
Specifically however we identified 12 service areas where recruitment and
retention efforts should be focused for maximum impact
That that you can find that on page 21 of
the audit
Let me let me give you a really stark example
In Harnet County there's one license examiner to serve 56,000
residents
Let me repeat that one license examiner to serve 56,000
residents
Again page 21 table 4 sort of breaks that down
It's not sustainable
Uh and DMV's reliance on temporary positions creates challenges for
Commissioner Time
He needs flexibility to be able to move those positions
around and make those positions permanent
Uh these temporary positions are harder to fill
They come with fewer benefits and create extra training costs
Uh you know to that end the legislature has appropriated
40 additional license examiners and the expansion of license offices
and that uh that bill is on the governor's desk
now
I say that's a good start but Commissioner time needs
additional positions and he needs additional flexibility
You know creativity and innovation is the only way we'll
get to finish to the finish line and make DMV
better and more efficient
And I know the governor shares the this thought uh
we've discussed it
The DMV has struggled with technology as well
Our information systems audit shows IT modernization effort modernization efforts
at the DMV have not produced meaningful customer service improvements
Since 2014 the DMV and the Department of Information Technology
Transportation Division initiated 46 separate projects that resulted in a
cost of approximately $42 million
But even with all the projects outside experts determine the
current DMV mainframe systems are outdated and overdue for replacement
And and and by the way that that that is
a that's symptomatic across state government
We got to do better there
But these legacy systems support all the operations and they're
working for the time being
And I've talked with Commissioner Ty and I agree with
him
That operationally we've got to get these licenses issued quicker
before we dive fully deep into the technology fix but
that technology fix needs to remain on the front burner
Operationally the technology at DMV is frozen in time and
it hinders efforts across the board uh for stakeholders
But the biggest issue uh that our team identified and
this came not only from stakeholders across state government but
from people that work in the DMV on the front
lines is the relationship between DMV and DOT
This is a governance structure issue uh that adds too
much bureaucratic red tape to the equation
There are 4 systematic challenges stemming from the DMV's governance
structure as a division of DOT
And let me stop here and say I am aware
and and I certainly respect Commissionery and Secretary Hopkins' disagreement
with this recommendation
Actually if you look at their response they agree with
every single recommendation we make except this one and I
certainly understand and respect that but The current structure limits
the strategic input of the DMV of the 45 performance
milestones in the DOT strategic plan for 2023 to 2025
Only two of the 45 directly pertained to DMV operations
They have restricted budgetary autonomy
DMV relies on DOT to submit budget requests but only
31% of DMV staffing requests were included in DOT's budget
request
Insufficient performance data DOT left out DMV customer service satisfaction
data in its performance report
Exclusion from key process modernization initiatives
DMV was excluded from planning and procurement phases of improvement
efforts led by the DOT
Again these are not personality-based and I'm fully aware that
Secretary Hopkins is new to the job over the last
6 months and uh Commissioner Ty is new to the
job but this is this has been a legacy uh
issue at the DMV uh between the DMV and the
DOT
The governance structures have contributed and will continue to contribute
to customer and operational challenges modernization delays employee burnout and
negative impacts on North Carolina's economy
DOT needs the DMV not the other way around
DMV currently generates 30% of DOT's revenues but accounts for
only 3% of the expenditures while lacking sufficient operational authority
DMV collects more than $3.5 billion each year
Which includes $1.3 billion in vehicle taxes you know when
you go and you get your registration you pay your
tax through the DMV of the county
But it also remits $2.2 billion every year to the
DOT while DMV's total expenditures are roughly $200 million per
year
You can see page 267 for a detailed analysis of
that in the appendix
I would note that the $28 million per year has
now been shifted to the state highway patrol through license
and theft but the fact remains the relationship isn't working
There have been several different DMV and DOT leadership iterations
over the years
Again I believe that Commissionery and Secretary Hopkins are are
really working well together but we need to organize our
DMV and our DOT for whoever takes those positions
Our recommendations consider all the issues laid out in ours
and we included specific re instructions that established timelines for
the impacted parties to adopt
First we'd ask that policymakers consider establishing the DMV as
an autonomous agency or authority with direct control over its
budget strategic planning and operations
Those specific next steps include requiring the DMV and DOT
to deliver an initial transition plan within 6 months
While DMV and DOT leadership oppose this our recommendations include
the development of a detailed transition plan to proactively address
the risks
Second DMV leadership should adopt a comprehensive strategic plan and
I know Commissioner Ty is hard at work on this
This needs to be independent of DOT and should include
measurable goals performance metrics and a draft should be delivered
to the General Assembly and the governor within 9 months
Third DMV should conduct an in-depth staffing analysis and multi-year
staffing plan to address examiner shortages identify staffing needs by
location convert temporary examiner roles to permanent and adjust pay
pay structures when needed
This should be submitted to the General Assembly and governor's
office within 6 months
Fourth the DMV should build and maintain a performance dashboard
Now let me stop here and say I know that
there's people calling me dashboard Dave and I'm fine with
that
Because I do believe that a dashboard provides accountability and
so we are calling on a dashboard to be created
to track customer visit duration appointment availability and scheduling trends
customer satisfaction staffing availability and examiner productivity and online service
usage and adoption rules
Look people don't respect what you don't inspect
The general public and the stakeholders across North Carolina need
to know what's happening on a day to day basis
with computer technology and the information age that we live
in today this is not too much for us to
ask of our state agencies
Lastly DMV should develop and implement a customer service experience
improvement plan and some some things look the DMV is
already doing and I've talked to Commissioner Tine about it
I know I keep repeating myself when I say that
but I do want you to know how hard I
do believe Commissionerine and Secretary Hopkins are working on this
uh
You know the staffing model needs to leverage facilitators and
they're doing that
That is where you have a greeter that helps the
folks that are waiting in line to make sure they
don't wait 8 hours
They may wait 30 minutes or 2 hours
If they don't have the right documentation they need to
be told early on so they don't sit there all
day
They're implementing periodic weekend and longer hours and that's important
But there are several other customer experience improvements that should
be included
Service differentiation is really important that is uh you know
if you have for example a rural DMV office that
has a limited number of examiners
Uh we recommend that the DMV look at doing a
Monday Tuesday Wednesday for example for renewals and real IDs
and then a Thursday for uh a driver's tests for
16 year olds and then maybe a Friday for commercial
driver's license test
Uh differentiate these
One of the things we've got to do in North
Carolina is get over the crest of the backlog of
folks that need IDs
Um we need to have incentives to encourage online transactions
Right now it costs more to do things online than
it does in person
Uh revised appointment management strategies that's a no brainer
Uh on the ground a lot of the examiners even
tell us that they just do not even have the
appointment process they would rather move people in and out
as they show up in line
Because we've got to get to the point in our
DMV offices where people are waiting on the DMV license
examiner not the license examiner waiting on folks to show
up because there's plenty of people in line that need
to be served
Enhanced communication by signage and using digital tools on the
ground and innovative service pilots like pop up DMV events
you know we've all been to the Halloween spirit store
in North Carolina we have a lot of anchor retail
spaces that are open and some large shopping center areas
that are open
There's no reason why we can't take new tranches of
DMV license examiners and put them in regional pop up
locations to move people through to get their driver's license
renewed or to get a real ID in an
manner
Additionally we would have uh the benefit of helping that
particular local economy in that particular shopping area uh because
there would be an influx of people
People can wait inside with air conditioning or inside with
heat
Got to evaluate new technology systems
The more we can do online the better the technology
exists for example in the airport there's a service called
Clear
I use it
Now to be sure they're using our real ID information
to provide that clear but that type of technology can
also be reverse engineered to help our license examiners move
folks through to get their license
And we need to consider premium service options
Explore a pilot fast pass style way of obtaining a
license quicker through a private third party such as a
license plate agency where citizens can pay a fee to
obtain a license quicker
Look we already do that
We have TSA PreCheck we have toll roads uh we
we charge a premium on all kinds of things uh
and I think I think now is the time to
explore that
We include also some common sense actionable items like amending
the statutory 30-day validity of driving eligibility certificates that would
be uh North Carolina General Statutes 20-11 subset N 3
Currently the general statute requires students under the age of
18 applying for a permit or license to possess a
driving eligibility certificate that is dated within 30 days of
the application for permit
This is quite frankly needs to be eliminated
If you can't get an appointment there's no way for
that that 30 day time period is just too short
Also individuals should not really have to go in person
3 times before turning 18 in person to get a
driver's license
We got to reform that statutory process
We also have talked with Commissioner Ty and I will
tell you that the DMV is working really hard to
authorize third party testers to administer the skills test
We found uh that for example in South Carolina look
there is a complete regulatory and licensing scheme for folks
that train drivers on how to drive whether it's at
the public schools or whether if you're at a private
school use a private driving school
There's no reason why those individuals who spend several hours
minimum of 6 hours with those individuals in the car
can't certify that they've actually passed the driver's test
We found for example that an examiner can process 4
to 5 renewals or real IDs in an hour
But that road test for the 16 year old typically
takes a minimum of 35 minutes and for a commercial
driver's driver it takes a minimum of 45 minutes
So eliminating that 35 minute time frame and that 45
minute time frame are really actionable steps and by the
way the DMV can do that without statutory change and
we talked with Commissioner Ty and Secretary Hopkins and they're
hard at work on that right now
We talk with DMV leadership uh I think I think
they really really really are on top of this
Uh we include information on DMV kiosks showing that the
goal has been to attain 500 users per month uh
but that that goal is still not being met after
2 years
It averages about 371 uses a month
Uh uh I I think we need to reevaluate the
validity and use of the kiosks
And if we are gonna use them they might be
better served to actually be at the license agency
Itself because that's where the market is right You're just
kinda you're catching fish that are floating by so to
speak individuals that just go into the grocery store folks
are lining up at the DMV I think those kiosks
could be better used there
Um a detailed customer experience improvement plan should be submitted
within 6 months
Additionally our information systems audit includes 4 recommendations for the
DMV on their information systems and all together these recommendations
implemented in full provide a real opportunity to improve the
customer experience of the DMV
You can find those in our audit
But I can't stress enough fixing the DMV is gonna
take buy in from all levels of government and I
do agree with the governor it's not gonna happen tomorrow
it's not gonna happen next month but it can happen
quick
We've seen for example the response that our legislature and
our citizens have given to Western North Carolina when we
have a disaster folks the DMV is at that level
of emergency in the state of North Carolina because our
DMV affects the economy
It affects people having to take off of work unnecessarily
It takes our students out of the classroom
This has to be fixed and it has to be
a top priority
That includes DMV DOT legislature and the governor's office
As an independent office we can give recommendations and point
out data flaws opportunities and so on
Our office stands ready to assist with data analytics at
the highest level and we welcome the opportunity to engage
with policymakers to provide insight on data that they need
to confidently and efficiently make change
This brings to mind story many of you may know
it uh of the pot roast and the pot roast
story goes something like this young lady
Is fixing pot roast for her friends and while she's
doing it she takes the meat cleaver and she cuts
the end of the pot roast and puts it in
her pot and cooks and her friend asked her so
I see you put those spices in there and you
got it on the stove
Why'd you cut the end off pot roast She said
Well I'm not sure that's the way my mom always
did it
So the next time the young lady was with her
mom she asked the question why did you cut the
end off the pot roast The mom replied clearly and
quickly I cut the end off the pot roast because
otherwise pot roast is not gonna fit in my pot
I have no idea why you cut the end off
pot roast
The point being is we can't keep doing things the
same old way
We've got to be creative and use innovation and you
know
Uh I I do want to say that the DMV
ultimately provides not a problem but an opportunity for the
people of North Carolina and for the government of North
Carolina to get it right
We're committed to seeing these recommendations through and implemented and
with that I'm gonna open it up to questions
You um I haven't been able to look at all
this
You said about 5 years ago
435 page audit by the way hey by the way
who said the state auditor's office wasn't doing stuff right
We've been busy
He said that things started to go south about 5
years ago
It's about the time the DMV headquarters was moved to
Rocky Mountain
Did you find any impact from the turnover that that
caused or from being so far away We did and
uh in fact I talked to the team about this
this morning we were we were going through
Uh they they lost a lot of experienced people that
just weren't willing to move to Rocky Mount uh so
they did uh the DMV as a whole did experience
uh a ramp up period where they had to bring
in people uh to that particular uh location in Rocky
Mount and that was part of it
Uh quite frankly I think part of it also has
been uh just this anchor of technology
Being old right I mean you know there has to
be political will and actually uh you know sort of
rubber meets the road will to change legacy technology
I mean the DMV's structure and bones is based on
cobalt
That's the stuff that's I think one step ahead
You gotta help me with this doc is one step
ahead of TRS 80 right I mean folks we gotta
do better we just have to do better and I
know look it takes time to do this and it
takes money
All right but we've shown when we have a need
we saw it this past year in western North Carolina
and we have a need and we've got something that's
emergency
Look I'll go back to what I saw this morning
I saw people camped out in line in front of
the event ferry DMV that's not acceptable in North Carolina
and I know the governor believes that and I know
that the Secretary of Transportation and commissioner believe that and
I know the legislature believes that it's time for everybody
to get in the room and let's solve it
I'm curious you talk a lot about technology when it
comes to actually rolling that out and implementing it
How do you plan to do that And do you
plan to test it first Well I'm not gonna personally
do it
What we recommend doing this
Look our recommendation is get started ASAP and I know
Commissionerine and Secretary Hopkins are working really hard on that
again
The impetus the impetus behind DMV being pulled out from
under DOT is it it revolves around accountability
If you've got an agency that's producing in revenue $3.3
billion a year OK 1.3% of that is tax money
that goes to the county but it does produce directly
$2.2 billion in revenue that goes to the bottom line
of the Department of Transportation
And it is the most customer
Front and focused agency in state government
Accountability in our team's opinion demands that the commissioner answered
directly to the governor
Because it's that important the way you ramp up and
our team Peter you wanna answer that on some ideas
on the technology yeah yeah sure
Peter uh is uh our leader on uh our IS
audit team
He and Vernon actually worked a lot on this
A lot of people don't know that the state auditor
does cybersecurity audits across the state of North Carolina and
as part of that our IS team our information system
team went so here's Peter Gross
To just ask answer your question directly the uh there
is a great need for uh technology overhaul uh concerning
the mainframe systems that run all of DMV's core functions
Uh our IT audit for the modernization found that the
planning for that modernization is not quite in place so
you're absolutely correct there will be testing
But first and foremost uh DMV needs to put together
a plan for what its strategic objectives are for that
modernization who are the people that are going to be
performing it
Uh we have uh warnings from a uh failed uh
modernization effort in Minnesota a few years back uh about
what could go wrong if you pull the people that
are supposed to be serving the public and instead have
them working on the system modernization process
Is there any sort of timeline for that What Not
yet
That would be on the DMV to determine uh I
think most of the uh people responsible for that process
and our outside experts we consulted would agree that uh
it would be 4 to 6 years minimum and that
caution would be encouraged in not pulling people away too
soon
And look that's a good question because that's part of
the problem
When you've got a system that may take 4 to
6 years to fully implement is there political will to
start something that's gonna not gonna even come to fruition
until you may or may not be in office right
from a political standpoint
So we're gonna have to have some courage and leadership
To move forward with this on behalf of the people
of North Carolina I quite frankly think it could be
done quicker and our team has looked at it
We don't want to get out over our skis uh
but there's uh modernization efforts on old uh systems using
artificial intelligence that can take that data in
And process that old data quicker which speeds up the
process and we're working with that in our own office
through use of AI moving forward uh but that's a
good question
I wish I had a specific answer but we do
have some timelines
We think this planning needs to happen within 6 months
I mean it's time to get going
We got to get moving
The uh as far as the you know the 2
billion that's you know going from DMV to DOT presumably
DOT is applying that to road construction road maintenance
And other other things you know there's a cross subsidy
going on here but how do you prevent you know
a DMV problem you know from if you take DMV
out of the DOT umbrella you know I presume you
want the money or most of it to stay with
DOT so we don't substitute a DMV you know uh
uh traffic jam problem for
Yeah it's a good question but state dollars are oftentimes
fungible
So for example our office receives approximately $8 to $9
million in revenue OK That revenue comes from other state
agencies right DMV is a little different
Its revenue comes from the general citizen OK And so
you're right
DOT is gonna need those dollars to sustain certain infrastructure
systems and we're not recommending that all the money be
set us be left with I mean they don't need
$2.2 billion to run the DMV
Uh however they operate in a with a pretty austere
budget given what they're asked to do on behalf of
the citizens at $200 million a year uh so
You know they've got the capacity for example uh to
to have the resources to pay for what they need
They just need to work together with DMV the legislature
and the governor's office to parse those dollars out correctly
and if the legislature needs to
Uh appropriate additional dollars to fill that gap with DOT
or with DMV I think that's something that should be
considered
Look I was clear early on when the budget process
started in Raleigh over at the legislature
We had information in our audit that we weren't quite
ready to release the full audit but I wanted to
confirm yes we need more DMV license examiners and yes
we need to pay these folks more
That should be the job people want right It because
if we've got high functioning highly paid appropriately paid DMV
workers helping the people of North Carolina you know we're
gonna have happy citizens who are gonna be productive and
the economy of North Carolina is still gonna be number
one in the nation
Did I answer your question If I didn't I'm glad
to keep going
I'm going on this forever
uh budget question as well
I think there was a suggestion in the audit about
maybe doing a different way in terms of funding DMV
rather than going through the usual two year budget process
they would get a percentage of fees
Could you talk about that or um is this done
in other states Yeah it is done in some other
states but the idea behind that it's a good question
is incentive-based performance
That's a private business concept
Let's incentivize the DMV to perform
Let's create measurable realistic meaningful metrics that DMV can meet
and let's fund the agency and the and the team
members at the DMV that are providing those results accordingly
I don't think that's too too much to ask and
I think that would maybe help us move
The idea is let's get moving right And I think
that's that's that's the impetus behind that incentive-based
I have a two part question on the staffing shortage
Uh first of all you mentioned uh you know market-based
salaries
I mean that seems like a you know a pretty
intuitive solution
So why do you think that hasn't happened before And
then the second part is do you think they should
target federal workers in particular who are out of work
for for jobs at the GMV Well I'll answer both
questions
One market-based uh salaries I think has been discussed in
the past
It's been brought up in the legislature before
We live in a modern world right And it costs
more to live in Mecklenburg County costs more to live
in Wake County costs more to live in Guilford County
than it does in Columbus County for example
That's just a fact
The state Personnel Act has a lot of problems does
a lot of good things too but it's got a
lot of problems and I think that goes to even
a broader issue of giving managers flexibility to manage their
agencies and organizations to get the results
But again what's missing in the equation are those realistic
measurable metrics so that we can measure the performance right
You don't wanna just give an agency or a manager
additional money or put them on an incentive plan without
some kind of measurable that gives a day
A point on a return on investment that can be
monitored by the General Assembly by the governor's office and
for that matter audited by the state auditor to see
how they're performing right Second I think we should have
the best qualified folks who want to serve the people
of North Carolina working in all levels of state government
I have a customer experience question
For the 13.8% of visits in fiscal year 2025 said
they were over 2.5 hours
Is that from the point that they check in at
the door or does that include wait time outside That
was from check in at the door
That's correct because that's where they were measuring that's where
DMV has been measuring uh their metrics is from the
time you check in at the door
So it doesn't measure how long you may have waited
outside
I mean you talked about some of these smaller pop-up
offices and kiosks as another means of getting the work
of the DMV to the customers in a way that's
faster or more efficient
Uh how are those maybe going to be filled if
there's these pop-ups at retail spaces when there's already a
shortage in
Yeah I mean I think that goes hand in glove
with first we gotta get people employed
We've got to recruit license examiners we gotta pay them
right OK
Once we get them in we gotta fill them in
We we recommend in those 12 sort of hotspots that
are listed in our audit on page 21 is a
good place to start
And then as we recruit additional DMV uh staff members
let's pick some real hot spots and try to
to curb the tide with getting people renewed and getting
people real IDs
I mean the real question also from a public facing
standpoint is I think the public wants to see that
the state of North Carolina is doing something other than
the same old way other than the pot roast
So if we can use some innovative and creative ideas
to let the public know that that the state of
North Carolina is working I see no downside in trying
it
Returning to the idea of kind of feeding um DMV
from DOT
Um How do you believe that the issues with DMV
have not been rising to the governor's attention for the
last 5 years and how would kind of split help
with things like morale help with things like the IT
modernization
Well I mean I think proofs in what we're seeing
um I would assume that if the governor was paying
attention to what was going on previously that something would
have been done to assist the DMV uh and I
may have been at the secretary level where it was
stopped you know we didn't dive too deep into that
uh but the fact of the matter is it's not
didn't happen overnight
These lines didn't start when Governor Stein took office they
started over time uh and I I quite frankly
You know think that it's just an issue of focus
you know sometimes there's a lot of things going on
in government and pay attention to a lot of stuff
and I found that to be the case in office
you kind of
Maybe start something and forget and then you gotta pick
it back up right Uh so human nature plays a
part of that but uh look this is something that's
been growing again the technology problem has been there for
a long time and folks have known about it multiple
governors multiple governors have known about this and and we
just haven't whether it's whether it's legislative issue or whether
it's governor issue or just an overall focus issue
You know that's up for public debate but I would
say today's the day that we've got to get on
it
I hope that answered your question
It's been in ask me a follow up
I'm glad to follow up on that
I'm taking a look here excuse me at your your
factsheet
I'm taking a look at a number of these key
findings
Uh they all have their respective emphasis
Does any one of these items sly uh stick out
to you and with this where do you start Well
so I think you start number one with let's make
sure that we recruit license examiners right And we start
with those 12 hotspots on page 21
Those are the places that need immediate assistance with people
on the ground
Secondly let's get rid of the driver's test at the
driver's license offices
DMV does not need statutory a statutory change to get
that done
That'll save 35 minutes from 16 year olds having to
take the driver test
You know the examiners get to spend about 15 minutes
That's what our study shows with each one of these
drivers the individual who's doing the driving instructions
A minimum of 6 hours and sometimes more with that
individual you know when you take a math test in
class the teacher grades your test right We trust our
teachers uh to grade the math test
There's no reason why we shouldn't trust the driver's license
teachers to certify that the students have passed the basic
minimum driving test right And that's gonna say 35 minutes
per examiner
For I mean those are two places start and let
me just repeat that Commissioner Ty is on this and
his team is working right now on a plan to
do just that and so we're really encouraged by that
and and he's he's ready and and poised to take
a leadership role on that on that front
Uh I think you also have to start uh with
the idea of beginning a pilot project for privatizing
The fast pass lane for people to get a driver's
license where they pay a premium to be guaranteed a
time slot to get their license uh
Uh it would seem to me a logical place to
start that would be in in in some license plate
agencies that are willing to take that on as an
effort
They already have the computer uh uh set up and
the ability to connect to the DMV
It's just about adding another terminal to their license plate
agency
Now some of these license plate agencies are kind of
small you don't have a lot of room but there
are some where we could engage in a pilot project
uh to get that done
Uh 3rd we gotta look at this line program and
this reservation program
We gotta make sure that people are not making multiple
reservations and clogging the system right And and we got
to start there because that can actually run independent of
the overall DMV computer system that can be a stand
alone system and needs to be reevaluated to be able
to do groupings of folks and move people through the
line uh more efficiently and quicker if we're gonna use
lines or we need to take the recommendation from some
of the license examiners that we interviewed across the state
and did do away with the reservation system and let's
just start moving people through
I do think the pop up is really a good
idea in the sense of not only showing the public
that we're doing stuff but regionally it can give people
a chance to go in and get their license and
also wait in line inside instead of outside
You mentioned that you saw those people on the news
this morning standing in line to those folks when they
hear about an audit they may not think that that
means real change
What is your message to those people who quite literally
are still out there standing in line today Well my
message to them is is that I am their state
auditor and I'm a dog with a bone on this
DMV
And that we are going to continue to shine a
light on the DMV and put this forward front and
center on the front burner until it's fixed
I have all the confidence in the world that the
governor intends to do that and that commissionerine and Secretary
Hopkins intend to do it as well but my job
as state auditor when I took office I pledged to
the people that I would make this office relevant
And we would complete audits and projects that get real
results
So with that said I'm gonna be a dog with
a bone on the DMV
And we're gonna make sure that recommendations are implemented and
that the DMV moves forward on behalf of the people
of North Carolina
All right
Thank you folks
I really appreciate it
Again if you have follow-up questions just get a hold
of Randy today and I'll be glad to give you
an answer through him uh